What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

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What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by Gens Camper on Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:14 pm

We do have some excess bodies but few draft picks

I still think Windsor owes us from the Dale Mitchell trade

I would sure welcome him here - he is a game breaker

Wishful thinking

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by Macker88 on Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:18 pm

Wishful thinking indeed.

Windsor is a position where they are a goalie & a defenseman away from being a real championship threat this season. With that said Ho-Sang will likely be back again next season an the Spitfires early on look like the team to beat in 2015-2016 (based on projected rosters). Even if we had a boatload of assets I highly doubt Windsor would move him.

More realistic trade targets would be,
Nicolas Baptiste - Sudbury Wolves
Erik Bradford (OA) - Ottawa 67's
Brendan Bell (OA) - Ottawa 67's
Zack Natasiuk - Owen Sound Attack
Daniel Milne - Owen Sound Attack
Matt Rupert - London Knights
Brett Welychka - London Knights
Max Domi - London Knights


However with that being said I think defense is where the Generals need to focus, especially if Brown ends up not returning.

Jeff Corbett - Sudbury Wolves
Marcus McIvor (OA) - North Bay Battalion
Brendan Miller (OA) - North Bay Battalion
Chris Bigras - Owen Sound Attack
Dakota Mermis (OA) - London Knights
Josh Chapman - Sarnia Sting

Obviously some of these players I've mentioned vary in what the return for them would be. The Generals lack draft picks so making a deadline deal for a big name will be very tricky. Depth roster players & younger prospects / prospects rights may need to change hands to acquire players.

I'd personally love to see the Generals add Marcus McIvor from North Bay. He's from the Durham region, he's a steady defensive defenseman with playoff experience. He's a solid team guy, willing to do whatever it takes to win. The type of guy you need come playoff time. Adding Brendan Miller would be nice to if Brown doesn't return, he's a solid two-way defenseman, gritty but has great offensive instincts, put up a ton of points in the 2014 playoffs. And lastly if we strike out in them Jeff Corbett would be a target, a stay at home defenseman with a veteran pressence won't add much if anything offensively, but a definite upgrade on Templeton, Robertson & Hertzberg.
Up front Baptiste would be nice, he's a nice combo of size an skill an has a great work ethic, but his price tag will be high. Domi comes with a lot of baggage but his skill is undeniable an with him being retuned he will be a determined player come the playoff run. Realistically Daniel Milne, Brendan Bell or Erik Bradford are ubtainable. My target would however be Natasiuk from Owen Sound, elite level skill, big body, plays skilled an physical, good skater, great leadership qualities. Not as big of a name as Domi or Baptiste but equally as Effective.



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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by mygens on Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:50 am

We need Defense big time ! Even if Brown comes back , nobody ever won the memorial cup with this week a defensive squad !

If we aren't one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the league by Christmas and we can't significantly improve on D , then I would sell the 95's for a bunch a 2nd round picks for the next two years , we are going to be very thin next year with very few picks coming our way for the next 2 years if I'm not mistaking

This ought to get everyone going 😊

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by mygens on Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:50 am

Weak

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by Macker88 on Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:32 am

MyGens let me hit on every part of your previous post,

I expect the Generals to once again be the top team in the Eastern Conference, If Kingston gets Bennett back they will be serious contenders, Niagara has improved from last season an looks to be a top four team. And Peterborough is deep an if they some how get Jake Paterson from Saginaw or an elite goalie they to will be serious threats.

The Generals D-Core, I agree is not gonna win a championship, however I feel like it's not far off. Brown would help the current core tremendously. Although I do think another veteran pressence would be needed for the playoff run, (McIvor, Miller, Bigras possibilities). Although next year an the following year I think it becomes a strength Petschenig become an OA leader next year, Vande Sompel will be a top 50 NHL pick, Desrocher continues to improve, Templeton has looked good in his limited OHL experience. Stillman impressed all in camp an pre season an has looked great in OPJAHL. Even Robertson has improved. Dawson Shackelton will likely come in as well next season an he's a nice physical defender with good upside, has looked good for Milton so far in tier two jr. A. Still have hopes Cecconi comes to the O, unlikely but still possible.

Offensively next year we lose a lot, Cassels will be gone to pro hockey, Hunter Smith, Tobias Lindberg, Bradley Latour, Josh Sterk, Aidan Wallace & Michael Turner are all OA's. Smith honestly could return as an OA remember last year was his first full OHL season. Although Latour & Sterk are likely the OA returnees. Lindberg will go to pro camps an end up in the AHL or Europe. Turner and Wallace will be gone, but they don't fetch noteworthy returns. Oh an Dal Colle could return, the Island has been very cautious with draft picks lately, plus he'll compete with Ho-Sang

Here is my projected roster early on for next season (optimistically of course)
Dal-Colle - Harding - H.Smith
Busch - Pu - Latour
Manchurek - Cirelli - Huether
Seeger - Commisso - Senecal

Petschenig - Vande Sompel
Desrocher - Stillman
Templeton - Robertson
Shackelton

Brodeur
Devine
(Of Course we could keep Appleby as an OA, but then one of Petschenig, Latour or Smith has to be dealt)

The Gens lack draft picks in the coming years, so they can't really do much at this deadline despite being an elite team. They can't trade Pu or prospects because they need them for the future, they can't move top 6 forwards or top 4 d because then the roster weakens and bottom 6 forwards bottom pairing D have little trade value.


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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by Macker88 on Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:44 am

I'd like to add we are what 5 games into the season, these comments are being made way to early, I just wanted to answer MyGens with my input.

Many things can happen in the coming months, however I'm more impressed with this years team then last years at the is time. Really believe brown comes back an feel we have enough pieces to obtain another defenseman. The offence an goaltending are fine.

A couple notes on my previous post, I believe McDade was reassigned not released so he could be added to that core. Chase Pearson after being drafted to the NHL could make his way to the OHL via request by the NHL team with his rights. Ian Johnston ('97) is off to a great season in the CCHL an could be a depth forward. Plus will likely burn out first rounder on a forward this season. Luke Keenan may spur the NCAA an he's look good for the Whitby Fury. An lastly if we keep Smith, Latour & Petschenig, Appleby and Sterks trade value will bring decent returns. I think it would be wise to move Appleby next year as it's likely a rebuilding year an it would be smart to get Brodeur the lions share of starts. Plus Devine looked good in pre season, is signed an has been good for Guelph in the GOJHL.

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by mygens on Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:30 pm

well no doubt you are well informed regarding the bodies we have available for next year , but very few of these guys are top 2nd round picks , mostly , 3rd and 4th rounders and later , championship teams are not built on such picks , they are selected in the 3rd 4th and later rounds for a reason , occasional a great player will come form those late rounds but its not the norm .

I agree if we have a shot at it this year , we should go for it , but only if its a legitimate shot to win the OHL title .

we finished first in our division and yet looked how quickly we were despatched .

I'm not one that just wants to get close , but not make it to the Memorial cup , its been since 1997 , thats a long time now !!!!!

I'd like to see us be a bottom feeder for a couple of years , build with our first and a bunch of 2nds and 3rds , build a real solid team that can compete with the best in the country .

but sadly don't think this owner would ever go for a fire sale and miss ANY playoff money !

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by mygens on Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:32 pm

defense wins championships , every memorial cup team I followed , 83 ,87, 90 and 97 , all had very solid D

we are not even close to that at this point !

just my opinion

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by Macker88 on Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:04 pm

I agree that the majority of top talent comes from the top 3 rounds, and yes the Generals lack 2nd rounders, but keep in mind championship teams are built when you hit on 4th,5th,6th round talent. Guys drafted later don't always develop as quickly as others. Look at Hunter Smith. Chris Carlisle was a 15th round pick, sometimes guys go later in the draft because certain attributes aren't there at the time of the draft, after one season of junior a kid can develop better defensive habits, better skating ability an such. Yes we lack 2nd rounders in the future but it's not a death wish. As long as we continue to hit on out first round picks and are 3rd,4th,5th round picks develop will be fine. Keep in mind up until the 5th round your still getting top 100 talent.

Also in saying your not one to get close to a memorial cup, let's be honest one team out of what 60 CHL teams win the memorial cup. Winning the OHL is tough enough, you can critize a team who goes for it an falls in an east or west final or league championship. Being a top 4 team in the OHL is a great achievement. Yes we don't get the banner or the chance at a memorial cup, but the parity between the OHL champ an the OHL runner or up west/east finalist is so close it's hard to complain that a team didn't "go for it" if they don't succeed. Come playoff time it's the little bounces an luck that wins it for you in those east/west finals, league championship an mem cup. The teams are so good an so close in talent it's anyone's game at that point.

Acquiring 2nd round picks are only the answer if you draft well, during the Tavares days an prior they had tons of picks barley any second rounders made an impact.

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by Macker88 on Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:06 pm

The D isn't weak, it's young, Brown will be back any day. Him Petschenig as Vande Sompel are a solid top 3. We could use another top 4 veteran guy. To go along with Carlisle, Desrocher & Templeton. Hertzberg and Robertson aren't horrible options as 7/8 guys. This team is really good an these young guys have great potential. The D will be a strong point by next season. As of now one more guy makes this D core elite when brown returns.

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by core33 on Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:38 pm

This team does not draft well in the 2nd round, please name me a 2nd rounder from the past 15 years that's really made an impact. And they have had some very high 2nd rounders. I was shocked to see the SOO give up what they did for Petaccio, did they not scout him. Ive ran down the list of 2nd rounders in the past so i wont redo it now. Oshawa has tried to bottom out and rebuild back up, twice in the last 10 years and it didn't get them very far.

I would rather trade for a teams 1st or 2nd rounder the year before, or a 2nd from the current year that has looked decent (if that team will give it up, and if that player shows promise). And of course a first rounder from the current year in the trade window, Appleby might bring that if he does really well this year.

But like Macker said, its too early to assess and we have faced some of the bottom teams so far.

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by Macker88 on Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:20 pm

Core33 - Couldn't agree more. Then Generals have tried to bottom out in prior years an to know success, the thing is in the OHL you can be a middle of the pack team, get a round of playoff hockey an still get a top 10 pick. You don't need to be god awful to rebuild.

Sam Harding in 2013 & Ken Appleby in 2011 are two second round picks making some noise. But let's be real it's taken to year four for Appleby to start, an he's likely gone next season so in some ways you can consider that a wasted pick. Prior to that 2010 Mark Petaccio was a bust, Tyler Biggs in 09 played one season for the Gens, again consider a wasted pick. Corrente in 07 never panned out an was traded. 06 Dean Howard.. bust, Brad Pawlowski 05 bust, Jesse Biduke 04 bust, Kyle Raftis 02 traded, Josh Mannin 01 bust and 2000 Paul ranger, arguably the only successful 2nd round pick for the Generals in the last 15 years. Sure Appleby is contributing now, made a few starts last year, but I'd say a successful second round pick is one who spends 3/4 years contributing to a successful team. Harding could be the guy to break the trend.

If you look at the current roster, Pu, Vande Sompel, Cassels, Dal Colle where firsts. Appleby, Harding where 2nds,
Brodeur - 8th
Brown - 3rd
Petschenig - 3rd
Carlisle - 15th
Wallace - 6th (London)
Latour - 4th
Turner - 7th
Sterk - 5th (Kitchener)
Templeton - 6th
Huether - 9th
Robertson - 4th
Busch - 7th
Manchurek - 4th
Smith - 2nd (Windsor)
Desrocher - 6th

Seeger & Cirelli free agent pickups, Hertzberg & Linderg imports.

So as you can see an elite OHL team can still be built with picks after the 2nd round. The Generals haven't had multiple 2nd round picks in the last 15 years. Yes you can say an guess what they haven't won a memorial cup in that time either. Yea well how many OHL teams have Windsor, Kitchener, London & Ottawa. Ultimately even power house Guelph from last year who had drafted tons of quality 2nd rounders didn't win the Memorial Cup. Owen Sound, Mississauga, Belleville, Guelph & Plymouth have also all been to Memorial cups in the last 15 years but lost. Only 9 teams have participated in the Memorial Cup in the last 15 years .. Meaning 11 haven't come close to winning it. It's how Junior hockey is, you build, you get close you lose you rebuild. Everything has to go your way to win one, you need to hit on both imports an have them commitment, you need to hit on all your draft picks (notice that's what happened In Windsor, London, Kitchener and Guelph... Americans that are NCAA bound need to come to the OHL, players NHL bound need to surprisingly return. It's really luck more then anything. Drafting well helps, but we cannot be mad with consistent conference finals appearances.. That in it's own right is a huge accomplishment in junior hockey. With the consistent turnover, it's hard to stay competitive. Is it frustrating .. Yes, but every year 59 teams lose in their quest for the cup, 2 sometimes 3 league championship fail in their quest for the cup. It's arguably the toughest trophy in sports to win. Let's not base success on memorial cups as if we do arguably no CHL team would be successful.

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by mygens on Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:21 am

lets face it we made it as far as we did last year , due to a weak division , we have not had much real success since 1997 , lets not start thinking like , MLSE where we are on the verge of winning , leaf fans drink that coolaid every year .

build a team of mostly 2nd and 3rd round picks with good scouting of course , and you will build a real contender , not a pretender .

for the most part with few exceptions kids go in the 4th and later rounds for a reason .

you are right , getting to and winning the memorial cup is a very tough prospect due to the age constraints and the nhl draft .


I dont rate a team based on winning the memorial cup , thats a crap shoot , in fact we should have won it in 1983 in Portland but did not because of wild support from the Portland fans for their team .

I do however consider a great team one who wins the ohl title , been a long while now !




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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by mygens on Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:28 am

the fact that the team hasn't done well with their 2nd round picks , has everything to do with scouting , until recent years we have had some really shitty scouting around here ! missed opportunity when you blow a 2nd round pick !

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by mygens on Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:25 pm

sure miss the Frank Jay days , now head scout with the habs

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by Macker88 on Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:27 pm

There is more to a winning team then 2nd round picks. You could have two 2nd round picks from this draft to the 2018 draft... That's still only 8 players... An that's if your lucky enough to hit on all 8 selections. You need luck pure an simple, for instance you need a strong core plus a guy like dal Colle to come back for a fourth season unexpectedly, you need to hit on 4/5 late round gems, you need to hit on all your first round selections, you need to hit on import picks, your overages spots need to be used correctly.. Rookies need to contribute right away. In junior hockey it takes so many pieces and things to come together all at the right time to win a championships.

Do I want the Gens to win at the very least an OHL title, absolutely ... 97 was a long time ago. But with that being said how can we be disappointed overall with consistently good teams... Would you prefer to be in Sarnia's position where they're decent for one season then miss the playoffs for 3/4 years straight.

Let's face it if your terrible an select top 5 usually your first rounder is gone after his NHL draft year an you can't build because you get 2, 3 seasons at most out of your top picks. Being in the middle of the pack in a rebuilding year where you finish 7/8th is actually a good thing sometimes, you get a quality player who likely sticks longer then a top 3 pick, you get playoff experience for younger guys for a future playoff run and your owners get the playoff gate. Consistent 1 an dones suck but that's not what the generals have been doing. Let's not complain about the way we've traded an are future because we have been in good positions in recent years an set up decently for the future. Second round picks are not the answer on how to win a memorial cup.

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Drafting

Post by Gens Camper on Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:05 pm

The Generals do not ever need to TANK - draft well and coach well and players will want to come here

Macker - you are bank on in your assessments - this team is not that far off - what you want as a fan is for your team to play hard and

not quit - they won a game last Sunday that - it appeared they were overmatched - but they pulled it out

As far as draft picks go - anything outside the 1 st round is a crap shoot - 2 nd rd is not much different than a 3rd or 4th

In 1991 - 9th rd Stephen Yelle - 114 th overall  - 11th rd - Ken Sheppard - 176 th

The best of all Darry LaFrance - 12  th rd - 176 th overall - we had no 2 nd rd pick

1996 - 5th rd - Jim Baxter - 77th overall - 13 th rd Jeff MacMillan 213 overall

2000 4th rd - Jordan Beirnes 67 th overall - 4th rd Tobias Whalen - 71 st overall - 11 th rd Chris Petrow - 215 overall

2005 3rd rd - Dale Mitchell - 41 overall - 4th rd Matt Seegmiller - 61 overall

Tyler Taylor - 4 th rd - 71 overall - 5 th rd Kory Nagy - 85 th overall

The bottom line is you can build a team from anywhere in the draft - BUT you have to hit a home run with your first rd pick

Another player - Chris Pronger played for the Petes was a 6 th rd pick and we passed on him

Let me also add Macker every year there is only 1 team crowned O H L champion and at least 4 -6 that could have - last year - Erie thought they had the team or London - North Bay some the GENS but only 1 wins - doesn't mean the rest failed

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by Macker88 on Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:17 pm

Couldn't agree more Gens Camper, especially with your final statement in regards to London, Erie, North Bay & Oshawa last season. Those teams all hand an equally good chance at repeats engine the OHL at the memorial cup as the OHL champ. My hey had outstanding seasons for different reasons an should be applauded for their efforts.

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by core33 on Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:46 pm

Last year was the best chance since 1997 for a championship. The last 2 times and only 2 times we were in the semi, Belleville smoked us both times, it wasn't even close. We were totally outplayed and had no chance of winning. Last year we had a great chance just didn't work out.

I agree Macker it looks like Harding will pan out. Appleby is looking good, but 1 year is a waste (especially out of a goalie that you draft) and that's not his fault, the organisation decided to draft a goalie in the 2nd round and then trade for a goalie 1 year DOB apart for a boatload of high picks to Belleville. Now it worked out okay, but why did you just waste a 2nd rounder on a goalie in 2011 if you cant use him til 2014-15.

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by Macker88 on Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:14 pm

I agree last year was our best shot since '97 to win the East, but looking at Guelph & Erie's roster, we would have been huge underdogs, so I'm very happy with what Thowey did at the deadline, Smoskowitz & Lepkowski where the ideal additions for the ideal price. Didn't over pay for a Carrick or Vail or Faksa. I mean look what over paying did for Sudbury.

Again I agree, a waste of a pick on Appleby in the 2nd round.. Yes, but like you said to know fault to him, it wasn't the smartest move if they had plans to acquire Altshuller. I love that Appleby is here now, he's arguably a top 5 goalie in the OHL at this point. But getting likely one year out of a second rounder bothers me. If we end up keeping say Latour, Petschenig & Sterk next year I think Appleby will get us a good return, especially if he backstops the Gens far in the playoffs. If he takes us to a League Championship or a Memorial Cup he'll likely end up in the AHL or some where other then the O so that bites us in the ass as well.

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by mygens on Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:11 am

when you get 2nd round picks , the organization can't waste them like we have in the past , and i disagree with you , the quality of player drops off big time after the 2nd round , and all those players gens camper mentions from later rounds , were all journeymen players , who took us nowhere , except for Lafrance , he was an exception ! a damn great player .

with great scouting you can always find a diamond in the rough in later rounds , your top 6 forwards and top 4 D must come from rounds 3 and up to build a winner , and i don't mean "east division champions " big friggin deal .

we would have been smoked by the west had we made it .

last years team was very average without Laughton in the lineup

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by Macker88 on Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:35 pm

There is know reasoning here, Your belief that you need 2nd round picks to be a OHL Championship contender is far fetched. Second rounder's help, but they are not the end all. How many 2nd rounder's has London had.. they trade all of them.. Yet managed to get to three 3 straight Memorial Cups, winning the OHL back to back. Based largely on there drafting outside of the 1st two rounds.
Look at Owen Sound in 2010-2011 with the exception of Jesse Blacker(Who they traded for), Kevin Cutting was the only other defenseman drafted in the top 5 rounds, Petgrave & Schemitsch weren't even drafted they where signed free agents, Stanisz was a 9th round pick of Barrie who they traded for. Turned out to be their leading defensive scorer. Offensively there leading scorer was Garrett Wilson, a 3rd round pick of the Spitfires they traded for, Andrew Fritsch their 3rd leading scorer, 3rd round pick of Niagara they traded for, Rob Mgnardi 4th leading scorer, 3rd round pick of Kingston, also traded for, oh and rounding out the top 5 scorers.. Andrew Shaw an 11th round pick.. who turned out okay I'd say. Joey Hishon was their loan 1st round pick and the only player they drafted to be a top 5 scorer. Rounding out the squad, Cameron Brace 8th round pick, Liam Heelis 10th round pick, Mike Halmo 5th round pick, Gelen Smith Undrafted, Gemel Smith 6th round pick, Brendan Childerley 5th round pick, Daniel Zweep 5th round pick, Holden Cook 3rd round pick. So as you can see you can build an OHL Champion & Memorial Cup contender with trades and mid to late round picks.


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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by Gens Camper on Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:06 am

After Owen Sound went to the Memorial Cup in Mississauga - I saw Dale de Gray Owen Sound G M at the G M Centre and congratulated him on a great year , we talked for about 10 minutes or so and I said it looks like you picked up a few 2nd rd picks this year and he said - a 2nd rd pick is no different than a 3rd or a 4 th - Does anyone remember how many 2 nd rd picks we rec'd from London in the Tavares trade - was it 6 - and not 1 of this picks we used in the draft - we traded several 2nds ++ to Niagara and several 2 nds to Belleville for Altshuller - That is what teams do stock pile picks and trade for a star.

You are right Macker teams are built from all rounds in the draft and free agents and imports.

OHL Champions are built through trades not drafts - How much better was Guelph adding Rychel - North Bay added players - Erie added Gaunce, every team that thinks they have a shot trade up add hope they made the right trade BUT again only 1 team is OHL champion the rest tried and came u a bit short


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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by jaycro on Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:41 am

Interesting discussion about the value of 2nds versus 3rds and 4ths etc. but where 2nds stand out is as trading pieces. They are the singular most desired picks (as pre-draft 1sts cannot be moved) and most prized tender in the league. Look at the big names moved at the trading deadlines and 2nds are the most commonly sought out exchange pieces. No one wants 3rds and 4ths except as throw ins.

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

Post by mygens on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:00 am

I don't know why Macker and gens camper are trying to make a point minimizing the value of 2nd round picks ,they can talk all they want , jaycro you are right, teams covet 2nd round picks , and 3rd round picks , top players , on top teams are 99% of the time 2nd and 3rd round picks .

the gens have not drafted well in the 2nd round of late , but more importantly , we haven't had many 2nd round picks the past 5 years or so , gave em away in trades .

that was my point I guess , is that ,what we have been doing isn't working , trading away our picks for other teams players , we haven't won the ohl title , which is my measuring stick for a really successful year .

so I will say again , if we are not going to have a great legitimate shot at the ohl title this year , then trade away near the deadline , our 95"s for 2nd and 3rd rounds picks , so we can have an opportunity to really build a team from the draft , which is how winners are for the most past built .

you fine tune with trades , not build your core team .

macker, gens camper and I will just have to agree to disagree Smile

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Registration date : 2008-02-06

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Re: What would it take to get Ho Sang from Windsor ??

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