Coaching - hate to bring it up

There have been some people in this thread who have suggested the Gens should throw in the towel or "go in the tank" to get the highest possible draft pick. I don't know much about this year's crop of draftees but I'm not sure if there's much to worry about if we get the first, second, third or fourth selection. It's not all about where you draft as it is about who you draft and each team's needs. Look at last year for example. The Soo took Catennaci (7-17 for 24 points); Kingston chose Quine #2 (7-15 for 22 points) and Kitchener took Murphy,albeit a defenceman (6-26 for 32 points), before we took Jenner before Sefton who is 1-5 for 6 points. Next came Puemple by the Petes. Both Jenner and Puemple have double the points of the first two picks. Murphy has been good, but not great and has faded since December. Some would argue we should have taken Puemple who has more points than Jenner but the Gens badly needed a centre! It will all play out in the next two to three years as the "big picture" evolves. There have been first rounders who have flopped miserably for a variety of reasons, including one close to the team at this very moment. It's a big crap shoot and higher is not always better! Choose well, Chris! Odds are we'll get a good one anywhere between 1 and 4!

The tanking began about 12 games ago - 1 - 11

With a new more qualified and effective coaching team brighter days will be ahead. Top picks will show up, high end on ice systems, and a new team philospophy that works! The right changes will pave the way for a successful Mem Cup bid - which is way overdue!

I believe dipps is very qualified.Two years ago, we were in the ohl final, and may have beat belleville had nieuvirth been healthy.We lost some players, and sellwood traded some decent talent away, and mortgaged the future, knowing full well he was would be gone.Sellwood left very little for dipps to deal with, and if it wasnt for getting draft picks along with thomas and valentine, oh and a so called goalie, not sure where this club would be.The new management has had ONE draft, and dipps and the gang will be given another draft and one more year to turn this club around.Reallistically there is 10 players on this club worth keeping. the rest well you cant just let them go. you need bodies.
The 10 players worth keeping would be the 4 sixteen year olds, valentine, thomas,berger, dehart, dehaan, and give labardo a chance, he has good speed.The rest are not worthy of a spot on this club. so considering the non talent we have and the horrific goaltending we have had, dipps has done a great job.Maybe we can play both goalies at once and give us a chance to win. Folks get over it DIPPS will be our man next year.Wheather you like it or not.

gmc 118 wrote:I believe dipps is very qualified.Two years ago, we were in the ohl final, and may have beat belleville had nieuvirth been healthy.We lost some players, and sellwood traded some decent talent away, and mortgaged the future, knowing full well he was would be gone.Sellwood left very little for dipps to deal with, and if it wasnt for getting draft picks along with thomas and valentine, oh and a so called goalie, not sure where this club would be.The new management has had ONE draft, and dipps and the gang will be given another draft and one more year to turn this club around.Reallistically there is 10 players on this club worth keeping. the rest well you cant just let them go. you need bodies.
The 10 players worth keeping would be the 4 sixteen year olds, valentine, thomas,berger, dehart, dehaan, and give labardo a chance, he has good speed.The rest are not worthy of a spot on this club. so considering the non talent we have and the horrific goaltending we have had, dipps has done a great job.Maybe we can play both goalies at once and give us a chance to win. Folks get over it DIPPS will be our man next year.Wheather you like it or not.

You must be related or a very good friend of Dipps.

gmc 118 wrote:I believe dipps is very qualified.Two years ago, we were in the ohl final, and may have beat belleville had nieuvirth been healthy.We lost some players, and sellwood traded some decent talent away, and mortgaged the future, knowing full well he was would be gone.Sellwood left very little for dipps to deal with, and if it wasnt for getting draft picks along with thomas and valentine, oh and a so called goalie, not sure where this club would be.The new management has had ONE draft, and dipps and the gang will be given another draft and one more year to turn this club around.Reallistically there is 10 players on this club worth keeping. the rest well you cant just let them go. you need bodies.
The 10 players worth keeping would be the 4 sixteen year olds, valentine, thomas,berger, dehart, dehaan, and give labardo a chance, he has good speed.The rest are not worthy of a spot on this club. so considering the non talent we have and the horrific goaltending we have had, dipps has done a great job.Maybe we can play both goalies at once and give us a chance to win. Folks get over it DIPPS will be our man next year.Wheather you like it or not.

Is he fired yet?

LOL is right! How many multi-game swoons and blowouts does a coach get before you might think he is in a tad over his head? Dips was brought in as a D coach and never distinguished himself in that 'specialty' either! If there are not enough 'developed' players who in the heck is responsible for that? As far as doing a 'great job' ... common brother what kind of weed are u on? Dips is costing this organization some big time playoff $$$ and reputation! It is wayyyy overdue to hit the eject/reject button!

If there are not enough 'developed' players who in the heck is responsible for that?

I think he made that pretty clear that it would be the previous GM and I agree with that completely.

hockeybeats wrote:

If there are not enough 'developed' players who in the heck is responsible for that?

I think he made that pretty clear that it would be the previous GM and I agree with that completely.

Yes, the SAME guy who hired Dips and made him Assistant GM and Associate Coach.

hockeybeats wrote:

If there are not enough 'developed' players who in the heck is responsible for that?

I think he made that pretty clear that it would be the previous GM and I agree with that completely.

Beats, I have always looked at you as a pretty smart guy. Time for you to look at the situation as it is. Dips has been here as long as Selwood was. He was brought in to look after defence. Defence sucks, and has since he got here. You may have ties, but think/look at your hockey knowledge and then either post or keep it to yourself. Dips is over his head. He is fine for Tier 2 and should go back to that, cause he will never make it with the mind set he has and the way he is performing today. Maybe he just took the position too early, I don't know, but he is over his head and the Gens will do Nothing with him here.

I still like him as a GM, I'd really like to see him given 1 more year, so long as he can get at least one of Lessio or Biggs to sign, doing that really put him as an asset to the club as a GM..... however if both players fail to report it makes his record as GM in oshawa much more so, so and then i say clean house.

Bring in a coach that is a great coach, someone capable of taking over from Dips as GM as well if Dips can't get back in the Win Column there.

When is Dips contract up. I hear different things from different people. some say a couple of years and others say it is up at the end of this season????
Can someone clear this up?

If Dips had any balls he would quit as coach and try and save the GM postion. At least it would look better on his resume. We should get a petion going for dips. That way the the powers that be may see the light. Oh I forgot silly me. They are monitoring the situation.

ogf wrote:You must be related or a very good friend of Dipps.

My thoughts exactly when reading that post.

We have a young team (2nd youngest in OHL) and have had a lot of injuries to deal with this year, 2 very key ones (Berger and DeHann). Having said that, IMO the coaches should be evaluated on:

1. Did the team perform up to expectations?
2. How did the team develop over the seasn?
3. How did individual players develop over the season?
4. Was the team motivated and ready to play on a consistent basis?

The GM should be evaluated IMO on:

1. How did the coaches perform?
2. How did his draft choices pan out?
3. What trades were made and how did they pan out?

Hard (or easy) for a guy in a dual role to evaluate his own cioaching performance, so likely this will end up in the hands of the owners

ogf wrote:

hockeybeats wrote:

If there are not enough 'developed' players who in the heck is responsible for that?

I think he made that pretty clear that it would be the previous GM and I agree with that completely.

Beats, I have always looked at you as a pretty smart guy. Time for you to look at the situation as it is. Dips has been here as long as Selwood was. He was brought in to look after defence. Defence sucks, and has since he got here. You may have ties, but think/look at your hockey knowledge and then either post or keep it to yourself. Dips is over his head. He is fine for Tier 2 and should go back to that, cause he will never make it with the mind set he has and the way he is performing today. Maybe he just took the position too early, I don't know, but he is over his head and the Gens will do Nothing with him here.

My hockey knowledge tells me this, particularly with junior hockey: a revolving door at either the coach or GM position is a recipe for disaster. Junior hockey works in three-to-four year cycles and any coach or GM should be given three to four years to build a team from the moment a rebuild commences. That rebuild to me, did not begin when he was hired as an assistant coach - even with the supposed assignment of defensive coach, the position of assistant coach does not have enough authority vested in it to count toward this process. (What would happen to an assistant that openly criticizes a head coach?) The rebuild commenced when Tavares and Del Zotto were traded. That trade happened in January 2009 which means the rebuild started ONE year ago. Some identify teams like Kitchener that were able to miss the playoffs just once and then resume their place as contenders the following year. A good point but one that neglects the fact that during that season of missing the playoffs, the cupboard was not quite as bare as it was here in Oshawa and that is what enable the Kitchener and London's of the league to be continuously successful over a long period of time - they trade draft picks to contend but not all of them - there is always some promise up and coming so that a rebuild doesn't take the full three years. This however is something that took long term planning - this is the result of at least seven or eight consecutive years of strong drafting, top-notch scouting and successful risk-taking at the draft (some would say rigged risk-taking but that's a whole other debate I don't want to bring up here).

As a GM, the only thing that De Piero really can be criticized for is not trading JT earlier - had he realized that the 2008-09 Gens weren't going anywhere with JT before the season started, the rebuild could have started earlier instead of waiting until the spring of 2009 but giving it one last run with those veterans is not an offence that would call for a firing. Some are choosing to separate the roles and say that De Piero is a stronger GM than coach but I don't think you can do that. He is one and the same person. As a GM, he is bringing in players that fit with his vision of the team that he will coach. Quite clearly, some of these players that he inherited don't fit that vision - we see that because he is not getting the top performance out of them. Whether these players are refusing to play his style of game, not capable of playing his style of game or simply poorly executing his style of game is an internal dressing room issue that fans do not have access to (and neither do I since my role is not a hockey job but merely a gameday entertainment role). That's why whether the Gens make the playoffs or not is irrelevant. Quite frankly, the Gens could be 0-68 this season and it wouldn't matter to me because it's not this season that matters. Whatever the players do that won't be here next year really doesn't matter and an 8th place vs 9th place finish doesn't matter to me either.

The "leadership" on this team are the young guys. How are the players playing THAT WILL BE HERE NEXT SEASON? Boone Jenner will be a star in this league and a fan favourite with a work ethic that might earn him the popularity of a Cal Clutterbuck. He's faded down the stretch but I don't blame a 16-year old for tiring in his first run through a 68-game season as well as the loss of confidence that happens with a 1-11 stretch. I still think we're gonna see big things from him. Thomas might hit 40 goals as an 18-year old with absolutely no veteran support on offense. That's an amazing accomplishment. Will Thomas and Jenner play for De Piero next year and deliver their peak performance? Absolutely they will. Berger could be back as an OA and he will play for De Piero and will be an important piece of the puzzle. I like Labardo's speed and Clark's physical presence. I hope to see De Haan back next year for some offensive punch from the blueline along with De Hart as an OA. Valentine has been reliable all season long and while we haven't seen the thunderous body checks recently that we saw from him earlier. I think he's been pretty reliable. His -27 is more a product of being on the ice so often on a weak team. He will be part of a solid defence corps next year.

I'm really worried about the goaltending for next year as neither goalie has stepped up to be a #1. I guess the hope is that one of them will gain the confidence in training camp next year with a fresh start and assert themself next year since this year is a writeoff whether they make the playoffs or not.

The players who didn't give their all for De Piero are on their way out the door. The reason I don't feel the same way about others about the Generals coaching is that I don't see the young guys bailing as the veterans have on this team. The fact that they have bailed is a more a product of their own character than poor coaching. A true character player gives their all no matter what the score says or what style of play is being implemented or who is coaching. If they bail, it's lack of character. Players should be accountable too. What I know about De Piero and the St. Mike's program in general is that it's very demanding. Nobody gets babied. Maybe some of them couldn't handle that? Maybe they bailed because he made them run the stairs. And if that's the case, good riddance to them.

Yes, I did work for the Buzzers and I think those ties is what is being called out here since I knew De Piero before I came on board with the Generals so my opinion is biased. Maybe it is. What I also saw though with the Buzzers though is a winner. I saw a coach who took players who had already established a comfortable lead in the standings and still give their all against teams that were 30 or 40 points below them in the standings because he wanted to ensure that no bad habits were developing before they took on the top teams not only for the OPJAHL title but the tournaments beyond that as well. I realize that the OHL is different than Tier II but there's no way that somebody who is so effective at one level in the art of coaching can be so poor at it jumping one level up. I do however know that I worked with the Buzzers in their expansion season. They started off 0-9 and missed the playoffs that first season. The continuous division titles that the Buzzers won happened because he was given the time to mould his kind of team. It took a couple of years and then we saw several years of success. Starting as an expansion team, I believe it was the 1999-00 season if I remember correctly made this a little easier because he picked the players he wanted from day 1. In Oshawa, he inherited a mess. I do think however that the same process can be repeated here with the 16-18 year olds that he selected as well as support from veterans like De Haan, De Hart and Berger. The guys in that dressing room that he hasn't been able to get to play for him are probably players that he would never have wanted anything to do with.

Some will disagree with me and so be it, that's what internet message boards are for.

hockeybeats I agree with your post 99% I like him to be one or the other as of now he holds both tittles and it confinds him to doing his GM duties scouting players, my understanding he leaves scouting mostly up to the scouting staff.I never like that system one person doing both duties.maybe it's this $$$$$$ when you only have to pay this $$.I thing there will be a change this summer and Dips will be relieved lf one of his duties.

Beats .... GREAT Post. I agree with most of what you said. I just feel there is always a reason teams play the way they do. Coaching guides that play. In 99% of the time, the answer is not to replace 15 to 20 guys. It is usually the coach. I understand Junior hockey very well. What bothers me with the Gens situation, is Dips was brought in and responsible for the defence. The defence has not got better. I understand your point re coaching status (assistant vs. head), but this still bothers me. Heck, the Gens still don't go to the next most of the time on the offence.

Here's hoping the deadwood replacement happens sooner than later. I would rather take someone in the system that is borderline OHL ready than keep a deadwood player to drag the rest of the team down.

Anyway, your post was a great one.

Cheers!!

Hockeybeats it's really nice that Dips is your friend and a fellow Buzzard's alumni. You may remember that as the head coach of the Buzzard's Dips 'inherited' or was 'delivered' lots of top players. His overall success with them was mediocre everything considered. In this league he obviously does not enjoy that luxury nor will he. It's even nicer that you believe to have a depth in hockey knowledge albeit somewhat questionable. What ain't so nice is NOT acknowledging that since Dips has been here that as a D coach (now with a league leading GAA) his ability to impliment strategy and game plan leaves tons to be desired. HIS 'self inflicted' goaltending situation has been a nightmare along with his 'no-show' top draft picks. He has masterminded many negative losing streaks and blowouts to be sure. For that matter it is very difficult to point to any legitimate improvement in individual skill +/or talent for ALL players in his tenure as head coach. This 'cupboard' may or may not have been bare (of which he was a big part of) - but there has been no disernable improvement in the individual players or overall systemic team play which in my mind is totally unacceptable at this level. Blaming a certain proportion of your 'sub standard' players (inherited or not) simply does not cut it - EVER! In this day and age of a very expensive program franchises cannot wait thru 4 and 8 year cycles with the 'hope' of finally 'discovering' the solution for a winning or positive season. As they say even a broken clock is right twice a day! And this ain't Jr. 'B'. If you think goin' 0-68 ain't a problem then you have never owned a part of a significant franchise. If after this very disappointing negative season (and particularily this ending swoon like last season) you believe that Dips is 'one and the same person' as an accountable coach and GM - then the decision of ownership should be quite easy! A significant upgrade will be just as easy!

gensman wrote:Hockeybeats it's really nice that Dips is your friend and a fellow Buzzard's alumni. You may remember that as the head coach of the Buzzard's Dips 'inherited' or was 'delivered' lots of top players. His overall success with them was mediocre everything considered.

Nice try, he guided the Buzzers as an expansion team so he ran them from scratch and inherited nothing.

Ok enough nonsense. He was 'delivered' ( ie. inheritied) key players and much of the masterminding was provided for him thru a failry strong St. Mike's hockey program - and you know it. It was always interesting in my mind that the Major's didn't pick him up since they shared the same rink. But 'today' that really don't matter! What 'really' matters is what he has done since he arrived here. If you can find or point to any significant accomplishments or value added then I am sure it will be taken into consideration in the final determination of the direction the Gen's franchise chooses to go. In my mind the 'I don't have enough skilled/good/quality/leadership players' excuse is the mantra of the mediocre or substandard coach and rings hollow. Ultimately the players have to want to play for their coach and I've seen none of that. That ain't good at all! I think Dips is quite fortunate to still be in the picture considering the circumstances!

While De Piero was the defense coach under Selwood he had no authority. Selwood had no clue as as coach and it impacted everyone. I don't think you can be critical of anything he did until after Selwood was out the door.

That being said I still wonder why the work ethic of this team tailed off so badly from the start of the season.

Whether the coach deserves another year is open for debate. I would have said yes until that embarrassing loss to Belleville. Now I am not sure.

I do wonder if ownership will feel pressure to do something in the off season just to show they are pro-active rather than because it needs to be done.

gensman wrote:Ok enough nonsense. He was 'delivered' ( ie. inheritied) key players and much of the masterminding was provided for him thru a failry strong St. Mike's hockey program - and you know it.

And the general manager of a team had no role in the development of a strong St. Mike's program? So a stork just delivered newborn hockey players at St. Mike's Arena? The Buzzers selected their players from the high school teams as well as open tryouts and recruitment in the same way any Tier II team would operate with the only advantage being a pool of players that are already at the school since it was based at a high school. Who exactly did the masterminding for him?

But 'today' that really don't matter! What 'really' matters is what he has done since he arrived here. If you can find or point to any significant accomplishments or value added then I am sure it will be taken into consideration in the final determination of the direction the Gen's franchise chooses to go.

I'd like to think that previous experience does matter since that's why he was hired in the first place but if you are using the "what have you done for me lately?" philosophy, I've already pointed out the accomplishments of Jenner, Thomas, Valentine and the additions of Labardo and Berger that will be the core of next year's team and are not the quitters that he inherited that are on their way out the door. De Haan and De Hart were positive elements that he inherited and will (hopefully if here) provide experience and veteran leadership to the players I mentioned in addition to the young players that will make their way up next year. You're saying that he's a poor coach because some of the veterans bailed on the team and didn't show up down the stretch, I'm saying that those players have a lack of character and are not his sort of players and so it doesn't matter if they are playing for him or not. When they are gone, if HIS team doesn't show a solid work ethic, particularly down the stretch, then that's when you can identify a coaching weakness. When someone is coach and GM, assigning two positions implies that you are going to allow that person to mould their kind of team and that takes more than one calendar year.

I am really loving this reading of back and forth banter. That is what this blog is for. But quite honestly wake up and see what is happening.
It doesn't matter waht Depiero did before he got here or while he was d coach. All that matters is he hasn't done anything since taking over as head coach, in fact he has pulled some of the most idiotic amateur moves I have ever seen in the O. He has no business being a head coach in this league and likely never will if we smarten up and get rid of him.
I don't blame him 100% the players aren't playing up to their potential either both goalies have struggled, the defense has been horrible and lets face it we all knew the only way we would have a really consistant scorer would be if Parnham returned. Kudos to Thomas and Jennner for having career years, Berger showed some jump and would be a welcome addition as an OA next year.
As mentioned the Kitchener Rangers always have a competitive team the reason for that is always having a smart general manager and a coach who gets the most out of his players. As a 17 year season ticket holder in Kitchener I can tell numerous stories of our GM picking a player like Lessio or Biggs. The difference was that the Kitchener Rangers are a top rated junior club in the country and their program, staff and organization are top notch. The consistantly put players into the NHL. When you have the option to go to a team like London or Kitchener instead of NCAA the opportunity looks ten fold better then coming to Oshawa. I am sure this will change with the addition of DeBoer and Graves. When these two start talking to potential draft picks on the fence the picture painted for the O is much better. But these kids aren't going to come play for a coach that can't teach them anything, in most cases Dipps wouldn't be hired by there bantam teams.
Lets make sure the ownership makes the right decision and get rid of the coach bring in a solid hockey guy with experience and better then that a reputation of being a teacher and winner. Then the players will come, the average players will play better, the stars will shine brighter and when a change needs to be made it will. Maybe this super hero coach might call a time out or two, keep the lines together once in a while, roll the third and fourth line a few shifts a games so the first and second don't look dead tired.